6.5.21

The Propcast: The PropTech For Good Movement

In this episode the Propcast talks to Menno Lammers from PropTech For Good and Andrea Basilova from Sensoneo about the PropTech For Good Movement.

Click here to listen to this episode, and here is a sneek peak of our chat below!

The Propcast by Louisa Dickins, Co-Founder of LMRE the leading Global PropTech recruiter, is brought to you in partnership with CREtech and ReimTech. This show will focus on connecting the Proptechs, real estate funds and VC’s globally…and get everyone talking about innovation of the build to rent environment.

6.5.21

About Guests

Menno Lammers

https://www.linkedin.com/in/menno1977/?locale=nl_NL

Menno Lammers is the quartermaster of the PropTech for Good movement. The PropTech for Good Movement propels Real Estate and Technology forward to support the UN Sustainable Development Goals. By stimulating connections between the Sustainable Development Goals, real estate and technology, they create future-proof environments for everyone. Menno is the founder of PropTechNL, one of the founding board members of the PropTech House, the European network and a much sought-after strategy sparring partner to the boards of real estate companies. Menno has worked for companies like Unibail-Rodamco-Westfield, Heimstaden Nederland, Savills, Syntrus Achmea Real Estate & Finance, Rijksvastgoedbedrijf (part of the Ministry of the Interior and Kingdom Relations). He helps his clients focusing on their needs while producing new ideas, developing effective strategies and designing high quality and scalable solutions.

Andrea Basilova

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreabasilova/?originalSubdomain=sk

Andrea Basilova is co-founder of Sensoneo – global provider of smart waste management solutions that are designed and developed in-house and produced in the EU. Sensoneo changes the way waste is managed. The solution combines unique sensors, tracking equipment, and sophisticated software to enable customers to manage waste efficiently and with a lower environmental footprint. Sensoneo is on a mission to help cities and companies manage their waste more effectively and efficiently while improving environments for people. The company has developed a cloud-based platform which allows customers to completely digitize the entire bin infrastructure, and to configure, monitor and manage daily waste operations online. Using their inhouse developed and produced smart sensors that are combined with sophisticated software, the solution provides real-time waste monitoring and suggests optimal collection routes and automated navigation via shortest and safest routes. The solution enables to collect waste on demand while utilizing the resources to maximum.

 

Resources Referenced

LMRE website www.lmre.co.uk

UKPA website www.ukpa.com

Proptech For Good www.proptechforgood.com

Sensoneo www.sensoneo.com

 

Insights From This Episode

  • When you are trying to promote a solution that you do not believe in, it's an extremely hard job – Andrea Basilova
  • PropTech is broad, sustainable development goals are broad, but when you combine them it's more niche – Menno Lammers
  • We are discovering or uncovering the hidden data which is not available right now, especially for the cities who are really facing challenges related to growing urbanisation – Andrea Basilova
  • The digital twin is really a big topic for the future – Menno Lammers
  • Our global awareness and priority of the environmental topic, of the climate topic, that's actually what I see as the primary driver of the adoption of the new technologies towards sustainability – Andrea Basilova
  • It's the mindset that's the big hurdle or challenge, we need another way of thinking. Let go of what you learned, or how you how you do it in the past – Menno Lammers on sustainability

 

Episode Transcript

Louisa

Hi everyone and welcome to the Propcast, my name is Louisa Dickins, co-founder of LMRE and board director of the UKPA, and I shall be your weekly host. Each week for 30 minutes, we will be connecting the VCs, PropTech start-ups and real estate professionals globally, and assist in bridging that famous communication gap we all love talking about. So, sit back, relax and enjoy the show. Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. Now today's topic, we will be talking about how PropTech can directly contribute to sustainable development, and we will be speaking with the one and only Menno Lammers, the founder of PropTech For Good, and Andrea Basilova, the co-founder and business development manager of Sensoneo. So welcome to the show, guys.

 

Menno

Yes, thank you for having me, Louisa.

 

Andrea

Thank you for having me too.

 

Louisa

Now let's give the audience a brief introduction to both you. So Menno founded PropTech For Good which we'll hear a lot more about later, but a little summary for that is that PropTech For Good is a leading global alliance that empowers leaders in real estate and technology to make a positive contribution to the United Nations sustainable development goals by inspiring, developing and connecting them. Menno is also the founder of PropTech Netherlands and is also a fellow mentor at Reach UK. And he's a much sought after partner for directors and a keynote speaker and I'm sure if you've been to any of these PropTech events globally, or something like that, you definitely have heard Menno speak.

 

And we're also joined by Andrea, who's the co-founder of Sensoneo. Now, Sensoneo develops and provides enterprise grade smart waste management solution that enables cities and businesses to manage their waste efficiently, lower their environmental footprint and improve the quality of services. Sensoneo smart waste management has attracted cities and businesses all around the world, and the solution has been installed in numerous locations across Europe, North America, South America, Middle East, Australia and New Zealand. Which is a huge amount of growth and Andrea, I can't wait to hear a bit more about that product and how you guys have grown and seeing as you are the business head of development there, a lot of that will be down to you. And so look, thank you both for joining me once again. I'd love to hear from both of you and Menno, maybe why don't you go first. How did you get to getting into this industry? We spoke previously and for all your sins like me, you did your own stint in the recruitment space for a bit. So how have you gone from that to setting up PropTech For Good?

 

Menno

Yes, I started my career in the recruitment industry in 1999 so years ago, almost 10 years and in my second job where after I left the company on the stock exchange of course, I started working for a recruitment company. And that was also the moment I entered the construction industry, worked there for six years, became a business manager. And at that moment, I was also working for a network organization that was an additional role. I became chairman and they were focused on innovation and change in the construction industry, because we had a big fraud in the Netherlands years ago. So that was also where the seed was planted for innovation and change. And afterwards worked for a non-profit organisation, I started self employed and at a certain moment when I was working for Savills, I was a sparring partner of managing director and was working on a top on the project. “How can we do property management 10 times faster, cheaper and better”. And at a certain moment, I dived into the UK market and there I found the term of PropTech. I started with PropTech NL and yes, the rest is history. And recently April 22, so almost a year ago, I launched PropTech For Good. So that's the story

 

Louisa

I love that and we'll be hearing a bit more about what PropTech For Good actually does and the while movement that's around it. But before that, Andrea tell us a little bit more about you because your background is super interesting for our listeners, its PR, its marketing, its various other things, you’ve come from a completely different career pathway and now you're a co-founder of Sensoneo in waste management. So tell us a bit about your journey.

 

Andrea

Yes that’s absolutely true. My working history is typically in digital communications mostly, also PR and marketing. And I think it is very simple, we co-founded the company Sensoneo together with my husband and his area of focus is he studied automation and robotics. And he's very senior in terms of technology, and that's actually what we combined in the company, because like half of the people are really the geeks, the ones who are able to develop incredible innovations. And the other ones are those drivers who are trying to actually translate to the public of what we're actually doing. So that's my role. And I also started to like very much the actual commercial aspect of it all, and it's basically very easy now for me now because in the past when you are trying to promote a solution that you do not believe in, it's extremely hard job. Whereas now, it's really coming naturally. And I basically am becoming the ambassador of our own company, that's what I do.

 

Louisa

Well, that's perfect. You're obviously doing extremely well during that considering all your expansion across all those cities. But before we dive into a bit more about your product, Menno can you talk us through a bit more what PropTech For Good, actually means? I think our listeners can gather and can guess what it's about, but what does it mean to you? Who's part of it, what are the different areas of that? Tell us everything.

 

Menno

Yes, you already said it in your introduction that it's a leader in Global Alliance and it's a group of people, leaders in real estate and technology, and they have to contribute to the UN Sustainable Development Goals. What I found out when I started PropTech NL was that it was very focused, and that's the whole PropTech still I think movement, very focused on technology push on the ‘what’. And I always said, how can technology being a lever for real estate, so real estate can also contribute to a higher purpose. So that purpose, I made that connection with the UN Sustainable Development Goals, because I believe and that's maybe a broader belief, the system is broken, or is going to break. And we really have to change how we are focused on society, how we focus on environment, because we are facing big challenges. So when you look at the UN Sustainable Development Goals, you'll see topics like or health and well-being, when you look at COVID-19 and office, that's a big challenge I think. And of course, health and well-being is more broad. Affordable and clean energy, the energy transition, sustainable cities and communities, affordable housing, waste management and pollution, responsible production and consumption in the circular economy, climate action, CO2 reduction energy of course. And also the nature part because it can't be true that we are still doing the same thing, but doing it less bad, we have to do it for good.

 

So we also have to reinvent our connection with nature, but also topics like digital twin metaphors, the ESG and venture capital. And there are a lot of topics and they always say hey, choose your niche, PropTech is broad, sustainable development goals are broad, but when you combine them it's more niche. And I believe more that we have to get rid of all those silos and work on themes together, the big moon shots, we can put a man on the moon and bring him back safely. But now we can say hey listen, we have to create CO2 net zero cities or something like that. So we all have to work together, creating all our value systems and being more holistic in that way. So that's what's behind it. And every day I want to inspire people, connect them so they can go further in making that step forward. And, and of course learn and develop them. And of course, that doesn't mean I know everything but the network will always win. So that's also something I learned in a my recruitment industry, the matchmaking part of that network. So that’s about the story of the PropTech For Good movement.

 

Louisa

Yes, you mentioned lots of different areas but I think for those listening, if you go into www.proptechforgood/maps you will see Menno’s map which goes over all the different areas, I think there's 17 of them if I'm correct. Obviously, you have lots of start-ups and is there are a larger area of growth which you're seeing, and who is taking part in this in PropTech For Good? As in like a certain area of it. So you mentioned the environment, you mentioned the VC side, in the seven different areas you cover is there a certain growth area where you're having more people getting involved?

 

Menno

At this moment, the big topic is the climate action or the energy question. So you see in that area is, of course, getting big attention. I expect that it will be later this year and it's already ongoing of course, but it's a hard topic - the future of work and the future of offices because of COVID and working from home. And then we get the whole topic like health and well being, sustainable cities, and of course, the climate action because then people go to travel and or not to travel because they don't want to fly. So that that will be really interesting. Also social movement, but also a technological one. But when you look at start-ups and of course, they're also real estate companies that can also be part of that, it's not only start-ups or scale ups of course, the most people are focusing on ESG, that's innovation infrastructure, and sustainable cities and communities. But that's a logical one, because real estate is of course in the built world or the build environment. Yes, but the main specific topics at the moment are really focusing on energy, CO2, ESG in general of course and I expect that the whole topic of health and well being will be a the big one when everybody can go back to the office.

 

Louisa

Yes, well I think that can be hopefully sooner than we thought maybe, I think in the UK ours might be the 17th of May that we're allowed to get back. I could be wrong, it's changing every single day but I know everyone's looking forward to going back but I guess the hybrid model, which everyone's talking about. Now Andrea, I see Sensoneo as a partner of PropTech for Good. Why did you join? There's obviously a community that surrounds it, why did you personally join?

 

Andrea

I first of all, have to really confirm that Menno is a great connector, he's really able to put people together and is an incredible advantage. Because once you have this approach as a leader of such organization its definitely a fantastic setup. And I must say that the meetings he organizes for the members of PropTech For Good are extremely valuable and the last one, which was mostly defined a networking without having any specific topic turned out to be one of the best meetings I've been to in the last three months. He managed to really connect people from different areas, and we were able to speak about incredible innovations already running all around, and you immediately instantly are able to get that with these people. So first of all, I would like to appreciate that. We met actually in Paris, about two and a half years ago I think, and that was during the first female of the European PropTech start-up awards, which we managed to win as Sensoneo. So this was the first time we met, and since then we've been occasionally in touch, really telling one to another the successes that we have gone through So we were basically aware of what the other one is doing, and just absolutely natural, especially considering the Sensoneo’s mission to join such organization.

 

Louisa

Oh, that's quite a testimony for that, Menno did you pay Andrea to say that?

 

Menno

No, no, no! And it's her words, I didn't tell her anything!

 

Louisa

Only joking! And I think it's so important that there are these communities, groups, associations, where founders, start-ups, consultancies, everyone that's involved in the movement in his space can actually properly connect and exchange of information. Especially when we've all been stuck our houses trying to innovate and make some serious changes to the environment, and everyone wants to compare notes because it's so early for us at the moment, there's no right or wrong way to do it. So that's brilliant that you've created that network in the space of a year Menno, that’s insane.

 

Menno

I do the best I can.

 

Louisa

Andrea talk us through your product a little bit more, how its contributing to sustainability. Tell us a bit more about your mission as well, how it helps cities, companies, improve environments for people?

 

Andrea

First of all, it’s good to say that we are not waste guys, we are primarily dealing with the waste management. However, our origins like most people in the company, we are really technologists. And what we are doing is that we are basically discovering or uncovering the hidden data which is not available right now, especially for the cities who are really facing challenges related to growing urbanization, the topic of climate crisis is really taken as a priority and they are really pushed towards more sustainable living. But having this goal, they don't really have further tools available. Really, waste management is an extremely conservative industry, I can recall any other that would be running going the same way as like 30 years ago. So what we are doing is really developing the tools, whether it's hardware or software, or different types of analytical tools, which is basically able to transform the way they operate now to a digital way. And it's not like for the sake of the technology.

 

The outcome is actually really the improvement in terms of operational efficiency, savings, really putting the emissions down, that's the impact of it all. I wouldn't really go into too much technology discussion, we are basically dealing with different types of ultrasound, rather technology, we are combining it with Internet of Things. And basically the outcome for the city is that they can basically improve the quality of the service, they are able to get about 60% of their collection routes, which is incredible for cities that are large, and where several 100,000 people is. So this is really the transformation of the industry towards a digital one.

 

Louisa

And what was the first city you broke into, was it challenging? I guess for the first time when you're getting your first case studies it's pretty difficult, obviously they haven't used a technology like this before, it's probably something completely new to them.

 

Andrea

Yes, and this is actually still true. It's so-called disruptive technology, because it changes the way the cities but also different kinds of private businesses operate now. And that's why they are mostly reluctant to deploy it because it's too unknown for them. And the very first city was actually the one in Slovakia which is not very usual, because they had many semi underground bins deployed around the city in like a number of several hundreds, and they were looking for a solution to understand the actual fill level in it so they can optimize the waste collection process. And they were searching for it around the Europe and didn't manage to find anyone, and at the time my husband was having his own IT company and we basically said, Okay, give us some time and we will be able to deploy it. And in about several months, we managed to bring to them the very first prototype, which was really like box of shoes that size, it was not doing anything else just providing the data about the fill level, which is absolutely nothing today but it was working. And it helped them to really optimize the logistics.

 

So that's how it all started, we managed to fine tune these sensors, which are like a commodity, it's not something which is like the goal of the business, it's simply the way how we are using the data one of the several ways. So this is how it all started. And once we managed to get into the waste management industry, we realized its the world where it is really a lack of efficiency and lack of transparency, there is no data, the things are hidden, it's hard to operate. So that's why we have developed further on many other solutions. For example, recently solution called Watchdog, which is basically doing now completely digitalizing the whole waste collection process. You are able to collect the waste the same way you did before, but you are in the same moment getting the data you need, like automatic service verification, really high technology, tracking, and fleet management. And it's everything done in a single device, which is a great advantage for cities. We're also looking for different type of models how to motivate or incentivize citizens to produce less waste. So that's actually the challenge where we are.

 

Louisa

That was going to be my next question, obviously you’ve got a challenge when it comes down to the government, the councils, the senior people in the city to you'll be working with, but it must be another challenge trying to convince the people, the every day man and woman, the importance of this. There's only so much education you can do, do any partnerships or wider organizations obviously PropTech For Good, what else can be done?

 

Andrea

It's absolutely crucial to work with partners, and it's actually the setup of our business in each country but it's not like exclusive per country, we are cooperating with partners who are recognized and trusted in the region, because as you can imagine to step into let's say Canada, with our company of 30 people out of Slovakia where usually people have on a map to find out what it is actually, its quite hard. So basically, we are really focusing on technology to make it absolutely perfect to be like the global number one and then they are the partners who are actually distributing the solution in the regions, they basically combined the technology with their local know how, because you have to be aware of the local legislation of the specific the region, and to be able to speak the language, not only in terms of like real language, but also in terms of business language, to meet what they're looking for.

 

Louisa

God, plenty of challenges and things to overcome there. But by the sounds of your growth, you guys are making some serious headway. This leads us really well into the next question. I'd love to hear both your thoughts on what are the major obstacles ahead for the real estate industry, if we're going to search achieve the sustainability goals? Obviously Andrea you just mentioned, that it's about adoption, it's about getting it by the government, the people of the world too. Menno what would you say the biggest obstacle is and what progressive steps have occurred maybe in the past year, and now what should we really be focusing on ourselves and what can be done?

 

Menno

Yes, it's a good question, and Andrea said it well and I really like the company because they are doing an amazing job. And the whole education, and the whole education being global challenges in waste for this example, but local PropTech solutions in that way. So, yes it's the mindset that's the big hurdle or challenge, which we need another way of thinking. Let go of what you learned, or how you how you do it in the past. So yes, when you look at obstacles, especially for the ESGs in general, being aware of the ESGs is one. We saw last year the climate awareness that grew, people work from home could go out outside. But when walking into nature, the launch of the Green view of course, ESG is really a topic that's more the framework and how to measure the ESGs. And what we’re going to see, and I already mentioned it, the future of work and future of office, and then related to, what kind of materials are we using? What's the impact on mobility? Do we want to fly? Do we go with the airplane? Do we go to work remote? How much time do we do we spend at home, and in the city?

 

I saw it also in my city, working from home is great but also, it's not great. So we also created a lot of waste in our city. And I made some pictures from all the waste outside, and my city didn't respond on a post on LinkedIn, very focused internally, very focused on their own. And now they win the elections here they had a rapid referendum, and asking you do we have to go back to the normal big bins or do we stay with the small ones? So it's really the old fashioned way and that's the mindset we have to change, to see the solutions and to see all  the benefits we can we can have. So I'm really happy and I really want to have the solution of Sensoneo here in my city, but maybe it takes a little bit longer, I hope but we will get there at a certain moment.

 

Louisa

I think it will, we definitely will get there. I think everything sadly takes a bit longer than we always hope for. Are there any other businesses part of your PropTech For Good that are really innovating and helping us achieve the UN Sustainable Development goals you would like to speak about?

 

Menno

Yes, one of the things and it's really a topic which is new, from the Apollo 11 ‘Houston we’ve got a problem’, but the digital twin is really a big topic for the future. We have to explore, we also have to learn a lot, but I can imagine that we can connect for example, the waste bins also to other IoT sensors so we can make better and better solutions and positive impact. And technology, I also want to get rid of technology that's only digital, because nature is great technology. So, I also have advocated the nature of technology, learning from nature like the termite belts, everything is on the right temperature. So learning from nature and how to design a building, because of learning how the termites are using airflow to get the temperature on their walk on the right level. That kind of things I really looking forward to for the next years. It's already there, there’d be affiliate movements, creating or building with nature. So it will be end to end, technology, digital, and nature. So that's it, my last topic from that perspective.

 

Louisa

And Andrea, you touched on a few things earlier, you mentioned the big obstacles, what progressive steps have you seen in the real estate industry to help us achieve these goals?

 

Andrea

I think actually, we have noticed really big changes happening, I don't know whether it's actually somehow connected to the COVID crisis, because simply the conditions are different. People are working and maybe even thinking differently, so we have seen really a lot of a lot of action in the past years, really our company was founded in 2017 and since then, the deployment, the actual availability of the new technologies has grown incredibly. And so the awareness of the real world, that the people are working out there, it takes some time for them to adopt these other things, its really happening very, very rapidly. And what is the major driver I believe is that's our global awareness and priority of the environmental topic, of the climate topic, that's actually what I see as the primary driver of the adoption of the new technologies towards sustainability. And it's a really massive way of seeing actually the companies and also CPs really sharing their willingness and wish to join this movement, of course the real world is a little bit slower so at least in terms of speech it's something is happening obviously.

 

Louisa

Yes, it's definitely it's a mixture of top down and bottom up approach and whether you're approaching it from what you do personally day to day, or when you're working for a big corporate, I guess there's lots of areas which we need to tackle. But looks like we're heading in the right direction. Now unfortunately, we’re coming nearly to the end of the podcast but let's finish it off with the classic LMRE part. Menno, why don't you kick us off, what lessons have you learned in your career? Other than how much you love working as an recruitment agent!

 

Menno

To ensure the contrast in positioning, rather than the distinct distinctiveness and timing is everything. So that's my lessons learned and it’s still challenging the right timing but yes, find the right moment.

 

Louisa

And Andrea, What about you?

 

Andrea

Well this wouldn't be some ground-breaking idea, but what I actually learned is that really the final customer, the final city, the final person in our case, is actually a dustman. If that person likes the solution you have managed to develop, you are doing absolutely fine. So this is the person I'm considering as the one who will need to enjoy and see the benefits of it and really make it a success.

 

Louisa

Thank you for that. Okay, now, time for you both to be able to give someone or a business or a product or service a little shout out.

 

Menno

I don't want to give the wrong names or shout out, so I’ll choose something different which has a special place in my heart. And also one recommendation for you as a company Louisa, that's a different one, this is my second but my big shout out is still going to the Lego Group. A lot of people in the Netherlands know, but a lot of people outside the Netherlands don't but I'm a big fan of Lego also a certified facilitator of Lego Serious Play, so helping companies combat complex problems and communicating about that, so strategizing and that kind of thing. And they are doing a great job also working on the sustainability of sustainable product. Already the leaves are in from sugarcane, but working hard to get all the cabinet's the system which is more than 50 years old and still working, also from the sustainable materials. So, the shout out goes to the Lego Group.

 

Louisa

Awesome. Thank you for that and yes, what about you?

 

Andrea

Yes, I would also like to mention a company, which I like very much, they're also supporting very much circular economy. And their name is Cyrkl, and it's a company platform which is connecting the producer of waste with companies that are still able and willing to buy this material. And this is really a great support of the reuse principle, one of the very basics of the circular economy and they are now available and really supporting the different countries in Europe. So I would strongly suggest to join them, it's completely free. And you can find as a city really the way how you can still benefit from the ways that you otherwise would need to really need to for disposal.

 

Louisa

Thank you so much for that. Okay now R, any regrets in your career?

 

Menno

No, regret is a form of punishment, I don't have any regrets in my career only lessons learned. So, no!

 

Louisa

I love that.

 

Andrea

I'm not able to recall something which was like, if I did it differently, it will be completely different. I don't really think so, maybe some kind of a lesson learned is to really not to agitate too much with the decisions that are inevitable. It will happen anyway. So once you have it in mind that this is something that should happen, make it happen now.

 

Louisa

And the final question for you both. So what are you both excited about the future of PropTech, and also everyone listening, we were all discussing before we went on the podcast about how we actually really don't like the word PropTech and how we should change it, and that it's no longer being used as a buzzword. So we'd love to hear your thoughts about what is the new word for this. But before we do that, what are you most excited about for the future of real estate?

 

Menno

To say, and of course with a wink, the future of PropTech will be PropTech For Good. I'm really excited about the new era we are entering, society 5.0 I call it’s from Japan, we have to tweak it in some ways. That's from my opinion, and the reinventing with nature, body and soul too. S those two, society 5.0, connecting societal challenges the physical and the physical world and also the digital world. That's really very interesting, I'm really looking forward to getting to see that happening. And on the other hands, reinventing our connection with nature, body and soul.

 

Louisa

Well, thank you so much for that Menno. And now Andrea, you're answering the final question, what are you most excited about?

 

Andrea

I would say I'm not really seeing the technology as something to look forward to. It's really just the way how we are improving the way we live and really to have the joy in living, it’s my primary goal. And it may sound too general but I find like something that it's worth to mention.

 

Louisa

Thank you so much for that. And sadly we've come to the end of the show, and I'm sure the audience would love to connect to you and hear more about the PropTech For Good movement. And hear more about Sensoneo as well, what is the best way for them to connect with you?

 

Menno

Yes, the best way to connect with me is to find me on LinkedIn under Menno Lammers, that's the most easy one. Or subscribe to the newsletter on proptechforgood.com on the homepage.

 

Louisa

Awesome, thank you for that.

 

Andrea

The same actually, LinkedIn is my home in the daily business life so feel free to contact me that way and I will be happy to answer any of your questions.

 

Louisa

Awesome, thank you both for joining me on the podcast and I'm looking forward to catching up with you both after the show.

 

Andrea

Thank you very much.

 

Menno

Thank you.

 

Louisa

Thank you for joining us this week on the podcast and a big thanks to our special guests. Make sure you visit our website www.lmre.co.uk where you can subscribe to our show, or you'll find us on iTunes and Spotify where all good content as found. While you're at it, if you found value in the show, we'd appreciate if you could rate and review us on iTunes or if you simply spread the word. I'll catch you later.

 

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