In this episode the Propcast talks to Andrew Lloyd from Search Acumen about data and property law in PropTech.
Click here to listen to this episode, and check out a preview of our chat with Andrew below.
The Propcast is by Louisa Dickins, Co-Founder of LMRE the leading Global PropTech recruiter brought to you in partnership with UK PropTech Association. The UK PropTech Association is a membership organisation to drive the digital transformation of the property industry. This show will focus on connecting the Proptechs, real estate funds and VC’s globally…and get everyone talking about innovation of the build to rent environment.
About Our Guest
Andrew is the Managing Director of Search Acumen, who are on on a mission to create the next generation of Property Technology and Data business. Combining many years of industry experience with recent advances in information and data systems and the latest in customer service technology, Search Acumen offer the modern real estate professional a cost effective and fresh alternative in the property data market place. Andrew has vast experience in the online property data sector for over 18 years where the power of advancing technology, his passionate leadership and a customer-driven approach translates into helping create a business that grew from start-up to market leader in 5 years.
LMRE website www.lmre.co.uk
UKPA website www.ukpa.com
Search Acumen website www.search-acumen.co.uk
Insights From This Episode
- Change is risk of course, it always is, and so overcoming those challenges has been the key – Andrew Lloyd
- The one advantage of the property sector is that we always need somewhere to live and we always need the existence of property – Andrew Lloyd
- And the firm's that are proven to be successful, are the ones that have recognised that the adoption of technology and the use of data is one of the ways they can cut down on their resource and time – Andrew Lloyd
- Now that you made that investment, whether you're a law firm or you’re land registry or utilities businesses, you've had to think about how can I do things differently – Andrew Lloyd
- Believe in your people, I think that's the one thing I've learned over the years is that money can come and go… but the people that you have around you and what you will get in return from people and staff that believe in you in terms of leadership, far outweighs the short term losses or gains that you get financially – Andrew Lloyd
- The local authorities will recognise that holding data themselves is an important public duty, but doesn't have to be restrictive. You can make it available digitally without compromising the value or the integrity of that data – Andrew Lloyd
Hi everyone and welcome to the Propcast, my name is Louisa Dickins, co-founder of LMRE and board director of the UKPA, and I shall be your weekly host. Each week for 30 minutes, we will be connecting the VC, PropTech startups and real estate professionals globally, and assist in bridging that famous communication gap we all love talking about. So sit back, relax and enjoy the show. Hi, everyone, welcome to the Propcast, and today we will be discussing data and property law and we are joined by Andrew Lloyd, Managing Director of PropTech company Search Acumen. So welcome to the show today, Andrew.
Louisa, thanks having me.
For those listening in today, Andrew has 20 years industry experience and is on a mission to shape the next generation of property law. Search Acumen is using the latest technologies such as AI combined with data to create market leading opportunities for commercial real estate lawyers and conveyancers. Search Acumen’s team are property and technology data experts, delivering solutions with emerging technology for conveyancers and commercial real estate lawyers. Now, we can think of them as property data engineers, continually pushing the boundaries of what's possible and never satisfied the status quo. They anticipate changes in data regulation and market dynamics to ensure your business has the right information at the right time. Their desire to innovate, reengineer and harness technology for the benefit of their clients is in their DNA. And this sounds super technical, Andrew, so I'm looking forward to hearing a lot more about your product. But before we do that, tell us a bit more about your journey to becoming Managing Director of Search Acumen. You started off in South England, Portsmouth University I know it well, I'm from the Isle of Wight to joining Decision Insight Information Group which I think was sold to large private equity, US private equity group, and then you've gone do a startup. It's an unusual journey and tell us a bit about it.
Sure, well again, I went to went to uni in the late 80s, early 90s, which is seems like a very long time ago. And I did engineering, actually geotechnical engineering at Portsmouth, and the first 10 years of my career was as a geotechnical and environmental engineer in the consultancy sector. And I realised quite early on in that profession that first of all, the UK doesn't value engineers, generally speaking. And so the career opportunities are limited. Secondly, everybody working in engineering is an engineer. So you don't have a very good mix of talent and personality types. And thirdly, we were in that period in the 90s where the first wave of technology adoption was starting to change the world. So we went from word processes to full on IT email, you can no longer post your report your client you are, you were the fixing it, you were emailing them, all the excuses for a late report were disappearing very quickly. And I decided and realised that I liked the technology more than I liked the engineering. So I basically went to evening classes to learn more about becoming a Microsoft engineer, and once I picked up a couple of qualifications around about 2000, I jumped ship from engineering and decided to go to work in in IT essentially, be one of the IT Crowd.
And that's when I met during my job interviews, I met a guy called Mark Riddick, and he at the time was launching a business called Search Flow, which was born out of a personal search company that he created in the 80s and back in the early 2000s, called the National Land Information Service, which was a government backed drive to get property data and information more available in the marketplace, through the use of technology and the drive of collecting local authorities together. It was a huge dream, never came off. As you can imagine with around at the time it was nearly 420 local authorities. So I joined Mark in that business essentially and started to work with him. And then also my current business partner, Andy Sommerville and a lot of the guys who are still with me now, in building Search Flow. Now in the first instance, we grew that to the largest provider of property searches, now a brief explanation of what that means, it isn't, going to RightMove and looking for property, this is in the in the legal profession. This is the inquiries that you make of primarily local authorities and land registry, but increasingly looking at other data sources such as environmental and mining and infrastructure utilities, in order to validate the title of the property, and ensure that there is no risk in the purchase or sale or transaction that's being evolved. So rather than call them certainties, it's better to refer to them probably as inquiries.
A lot of the data comes from local authorities and local government. And as you can imagine, that was a that was a paper driven process. You used to fill out a cheque and write a letter to the local authority saying, “Please could you answer some questions about this property address?” and they would send you back a standard report form with the answers on, which the lawyer would then review in the context of a conveyancing transaction or commercial transaction. We had a vision at the time that said, “Look, right now, that's that, that paper driven stuff is madness, you could do all of this online. You’d b able to at least place your order for this for this information through an online portal. So we essentially created the first online shop for property inquiries and property information, which was selling the search requests to local authorities, land registry, and other providers, the big environmental data companies like Landmark and Ground Shore, the Coal Authorities, the utilities companies, water companies. And so it provided that the mantra at the time was kind of one stop shop, as a lawyer, why spend time writing cheques and sending letters when you could pop onto our website, give us the address, and we'll do the rest.
And that proved to be hugely successful. And we grew Search Flow to a point that we sold that business to a Canadian company called MDA ran up in 2006. And they merged Search Flow with their own property inquiry business, and gave us control of both companies to run. And we continue to grow that business right through to the point where we think based on the language, the volume figures and so on, we got to about 30% market share. So one in almost 3 transactions in the UK was going through Search Flow for its property inquiries. And at its peak in 2007, we did 400,000 inquiries in one 12 months. It was massive, we had almost 200 people at that point. And then, of course, the financial crisis hit, which is my least favorite period of my employment. Even for a technology business, at the time we had a lot of people, we had 200 staff, we had people going out collecting search data directly from local authorities, out in cars and visiting these boroughs and reviewing records.
And so we had a big operation, and overnight, the volume of the business that we were doing was cut in half, we went from 1.2 million to 560,000 house sales a year. And so that was a tough period, you learn a lot about yourself when you go through something like that. And then post it again, because we were hugely successful the company wasn't in trouble as it were, it was just uncomfortable because a lot of staff lost their jobs over that period, we just didn't have the volume. And we came out of that in reasonably good shape, again keeping the pressure on the technology, developing new ways of sharing and connecting the data that we are getting from these reports. And then in 2010, at the end of 2010 MDA us as a business to the Texas Pacific Group TPG, which is one of the largest private equity companies on the planet. And we went from being a startup a decade ago with complete control, to being a member of a publicly traded corporate MDA, to then being solely owned by a revenue driven private equity firm that wants you to flip the business in five years for double the value.
And I'll be honest, that doesn't suit me, that's not where I excel. Our back office technology was getting over a decade old, needed to be replaced and I felt like I was pushing a locked door to try and get money invested in the business for the next generation because they that the attitude was stacked at high and flip the business. Which is a perfectly valid business plan, but not one that kind of, I couldn't see the point of me. What value do I add to a business like that when I'm more driven by innovation, change, constantly wanting to do things differently and better. And so I was a very expensive luxury for that particular type of business essentially. So we agreed an exit, and I managed to time that for the end of July 2012, which you may or may not recall was just before the start the London Olympics. I was then able to at least spend the first month of my period of exclusion, watching every British athlete in every event I could possibly find for the Olympics, going up to the Olympic Park. So that was brilliant.
You timed it very well!
I knew I had this year off. And so I thought, right it really couldn't have started any better, played a lot of gold, and we were thinking about what to do next. I was actually thinking about changing industries. And I remained good friends with Mark and with Andy over that period, Mark had left the business previously, he's 10 years older than we are. So he retired and gone off into the sunset a few years before that. And I was playing golf with Mark in January, and he looked at me and said, “Well, what would you do differently, if you did it all again?” This is on the first tee at the Rochester golf club? And I said “Why would I do it all again?” and he said “I know, but if you were to do it again, what would you do differently?” And I said, “Oh, I don't know, give me give me a minute to think about it.” So we played the first hole, and as I'm walking onto the green, takes about 10 minutes or so. And I got there and said “Right look, the opportunity now 10 years from when we first started, is really largely based around the way that you can implement technology”, we were just at the beginning, this is 2013 time, right? S
o we're just at the beginning of cloud adoption. Microsoft is launching its it's Office 365, Amazon Web Services are getting up and running in a meaningful kind of way. The advent of the agile development has meant that you could create applications much more rapidly and much more cheaply than you could back in 2000. I think the original version of the Search Flow back office that we created cost about £1 million to do, it was a big investment for the time. I was confident we could do it for a 10th of that cost 10 years later, but to build the same kind of infrastructure, and you put it in the cloud. And as I said, you'd have an office that was really just a wireless router, and people collecting, browser based services. And he said “Oh great, that sounds promising. What about searches?”, and I said things are starting to change, we're just starting to see the beginning of the Open Data Standards, government is realising the value of the data it's holding. And it's also understanding that making that available on a wider basis digitally, is becoming increasingly important. So I can see the next decade, 2013 to 2025 as being a period where data becomes more and more important. Data about property, I think in the space becomes more and more important and more and more available. So we should be creating systems that not only can we set up a business that will do what we used to do, sell property inquiries and make a bit of money, but create something that as this data becomes available, we can add to the portfolio of services, the real time data analytics, that you really need for buying and selling and transacting on property in a legal market space, rather than waiting for the search reports to come back from third party providers.
And tell us a little bit more about your vision to the market, you’ve touched on the data side, the tech side, but I'm sure there's a lot more to your vision.
Yes, so in that period that we're talking about now, the last seven years for us essentially, a lot of the things that we talked about in 2013/2014 are now starting to become a bit more mainstream. The Open Data Standards, the government GIS and data groups are releasing more information, as we thought they would. And what this has opened up is the opportunity to build services that are real time for property, which is a massive paradigm shift for the legal marketplace. The marketplace works as it does today because of caveat emptor, that everything is on the buyer to confirm that what they’re buying is what they think they're buying, it's their job to do the due diligence and they're taking the risk. And the last reason lawyers are so heavily involved in the process is because that somebody has to make that that risk-based decision about whether you're buying a home, which you only do once every 10 years. And so as a member of the public, you've got no idea what's going on, you definitely need advice in that process, its complex. And if you're a commercial business, then the amount of finance involved is significant. So again, this is big when you're talking about transactions.
And so, time has always been a factor, and it's a very hot topic at the minute is obviously, how long these transactions take both commercial and residential. And part of that time is down to the availability of information about properties. So our vision, what I see in five years time from now, maybe 10 years tops, is that you as an individual will be stood outside any property in the UK, with an app on your phone that is basically going to tell you, in legal advice terms everything you would need to know about buying a property from the same data sources that you would have gone to today, and asked for a PDF report it can be done instantly, by the use of the data in the first place, and the AI and analytics that can pull that information together and put it on an app on your phone, right. And you get a pre-sale sign off almost. And with that sign off, can come pre approval for mortgages, that the data spreads much wider, our little bit is actually focused on proving good title and the quality of the property itself. But you can link all of that into your ID services, your financial services, and pre approvals for individuals mortgages, but also mortgages on properties survey, you can digital survey, all of that stuff will start to be linked together into this completely digital transaction. And it's a massive opportunity for businesses that want to concentrate on the technology to deliver those services, rather than keep the status quo of where we are today.
And there's obviously a massive opportunity, but opportunity is never without its challenges. What would you say some of the industry's biggest challenges are, because you'll be surrounded by challenged within the law sector, as well as real estate? How are you overcoming them, what maybe are the top three standards you're looking to overcome?
Okay, so this isn't the first time we've talked about changing the industry. So yes, I've been involved with a number of initiatives over the years, whether it was the home information packs, whether it was land registries chain matrix, or the home buying forum, there's been lots of different attempts to evolve or even revolutionise the home buying and selling process. My view would be that they all failed for one very simple reason. The old process, the current process wasn't broken enough. You could sell 1.2 million homes a year doing what we did today. And it's supported in the industry. And the industry itself didn't feel the need to change because there was no pressure, there was nothing to say what you're doing today doesn't work. And without that drive, then although it would have been possible to modernised a lot of what was going on, it wasn't needed. So the opportunity this time round, is that the pressure to change is coming from outside of the home moving, the legal sector. Everything around the legal sector is changing. Now that people have got the Internet of Things, you've got the advent of AI, you've got the future that involves blockchain, you're going to have all of those things running.
And of course, the more savvy, tech savvy consumer, your 20 year old today isn't going to want to engage with the conveyancer in the same way that someone of my age or older does, or would naturally do. Their expectations are moving very rapidly, as to as to what kind of services they will gravitate to. And the fact that the sad news of very for anybody who doesn't believe this, the sad news about Topshop yesterday is a just a very stark reminder that if you sit there long enough saying it won't change because everything's okay, eventually you get bypassed. And so the challenges we have in the in the sector are that there's massive of inertia amongst existing players, because they've done it this way for my god for 30/40 years, and many of the decision makers in those businesses have literally done it the same way for 30 or 40 years. And so it's the adoption of new processes is slow, the legal profession is adverse to risk it’s their job, from almost the first day they go to law school, they're trained to help their clients avoid risk, if they can eliminate risk altogether, that's the perfect result. And so change is risk, of course, it always is, and so overcoming those challenges has been the key one. And then the slow crawl that we've made towards access to data, public data.
This leads on to the next question, whether or not you can name some of your clients, what pressures are your clients currently facing and how you alleviating that pressure?
So I think a good example of how the profession has to change because of outside pressure, rather than internal is that the clients of these businesses, two good examples would be in commercial real estate, the bigger housing associations who employ the city firms to help them manage their portfolios of properties. And some of these associations own 10s of 1000s of properties now, they've spent the last five years merging these smaller associates into the bigger mega ones, and they've got large portfolios of property that need to be cleansed and cleaned and refinanced and reviewed. And they are putting a lot of time and money pressure, costs onto these commercial law firms who are having to think about doing things in a completely different way in order to meet those demands. And the other sector that tends to drive it in residential tends to be new house building, the new home builders. They're on tight cashflow deadlines, they're looking to get houses completed and solved in very short timeframes, 28 days typically. Talk to most conveyancers who work with new home builders, and they’re talking about offer to completion in 28 days, that's their target. And if you as a law firm can't do that, then you probably aren't going to make it onto their panel.
And so your clients are starting to drive some of the behavior in these in these law firms, and the firm's that are proven to be successful, are the ones that have recognised that the adoption of technology and the use of data is one of the ways they can cut down on their resource and time. If you have to review some nice 64,000 titles in the property, then under old processes, that would have been a team of a junior lawyers sat in a room for two weeks, so flicking through title plans and registers. Whereas now what you can extract the data, you can analyze the data, you can review it, you can look for risks, you can highlight elements that don't match, all of those things are possible through even standard algorithms, even before you start putting the power AI onto it. And so you're able to demonstrate to these firms, that the ability to do the simple, mundane tasks more quickly, and allow them to concentrate on that specialist legal work, where they really add value, where's the value in it in a lawyer reading 60,000 titles? Right, you want them doing something a little bit more meaningful than that.
Yes exactly, especially for what you're paying them. Are your customers receptive of this, are they expecting more? Obviously, they're expecting will the processes to be sped up, how has COVID impacted how they're responding to this technology?
There’s two questions in there. In fact, in the first instance like all markets, you have the standard range of early adopters, the people who are open to change that want somebody to jump, and then you've got the guys that it wouldn't matter if it was, if the tide was up around their knees, they still wouldn't want to do change what they do. And that's the same as any market. So we've always targeted our client base in the first instance, those early adopters, and then those firms that are willing to follow the early adopters once there's a proof of concept. And what the advantage those firms have found is that they are attracting the more tech savvy client base, which of course now with the way that the markets are changing, tends to be the bigger, more powerful companies because tech businesses are the ones that are now leading the leading the world economy out there essentially. Eight of the top ten size businesses on the planet are now tech based companies? Where a decade ago, it would have been two or three and many of the rest were petrochemical and retail. So you can see that shift happening right through the base of businesses and companies. And so in order to serve these companies, you need to change your attitude as a lawyer, and the early adopter opportunities is that you get some of those bigger clients first.
And secondly, COVID, well wow, this is not a profession that was prepared for COVID out of the box, shall we say. The concept of working from home, out of sight of people in the office doesn't didn't really exist in any meaningful way in any part of this kind of profession. Not just the lawyers, but with other elements as well. And I think this has opened a lot of people's eyes to the possibility that you don't have to be in the office till 10pm every night to prove that you're doing the work. And you can do it digitally, far more efficiently than you can if you're working with paper and boxes and files. When you're working from home, you don't have access to that archive of boxes in your office that have got and so on, you have to find a different way of doing it. And I think it shocked the industry. I know land registry certainly had a challenge when lockdown first occurred, again as an organization that's very much structured on having people together, and their caseworkers in the office working on desktops, to suddenly have all these guys at home, there was a proportion of their workforce that didn't even have internet at home, and they have to solve all of that to get back up and running again, which is a massive task.
Now that you've done that, now that you made that investment, whether you're a law firm, or your land registry or utilities businesses, you've had to think about how can I do things differently? And I know, we chatted before we got on air about that the trust, I think originally business owners were worried about working from home, because you can't see what I'm doing. And this is true of us as well, and we've always thought of ourselves as reasonably forward thinking very positive stuff, is that actually people work really hard when they're at home. When they realise there's a job to do and there's work in front of them, they're perfectly capable of getting tasks completed and getting work done. If you give them the right culture, the right tools in the right environment, pretty much that they do in the office. And in fact, one of the things they miss most is some of the human contact, which if you can find a way to replace that, and the legal profession is facing the same challenges, they’re summoned back in the offices, but many of them are now working from home realising that you don't have to travel into the city every day, you can actually be more productive, because you're not being interrupted working from home. And I think that's a change that is going to stay. My people now fully understood that that's possible. And a lot of these law firms have adopted technology that they've resisted up until this point, because they didn't believe in it, the belief wasn't quite there yet. And so the thought of doing digital signatures on contracts, and e-signing title documents for property transfers, is now not only possible, but becoming the preferred solution.
I think also a lot of it is just getting used to it. I'm currently selling my property at the moment and I feel like when I did an online signature, I was signing my life away, it was just so easy to do when it's such a big personal asset to you. So, we've obviously seen a lot of change, let's think 15 years ahead roughly, what do you think the markets going to look like?
Not like this!
The one advantage of the property sector is that we always need somewhere to live. And we always need the existence of property right, so that as a business is going to continue. However, the way that we transact and own property I think is open to huge change. Not only are we collecting huge amounts of data through IoT and other applications about land and property, and that's growing more and more by the day. Whether you're an investor or a commercial real estate owner or private owner, the amount of have information and data possible, and I get emails now telling me from my Hive, how my heat and power usage compares to other houses in my arear, all of that is feeding into this understanding. So there's much more data. And of course, I think the government organisations like land registry, and the local authorities will recognise that holding data themselves, is an important public duty, but doesn't have to be restrictive, you can make it available digitally without compromising the value or the integrity of that data, particularly if you secure it through things like blockchain. And so even the public records, and this isn't just true property, that's going to be true of all sectors, whether it's your passport, whether it's your medical records, whether it's your driving license, all of that is going to change dramatically, your ID is going to become digital.
And I know that for a lot of people, that's a scary thought, but it's going to happen. I look at my kids who are to the 16 and 18, their concept of the world is completely different from where mine would have been. And that's the next generation, they're the people that will adopt this not us, we’ll be the old fuddy’s in the home wishing that “I remember when this was all fields”. And you've got to think in 15 years time, my kids will be in their 30s. And they'll be the ones driving adopting this, and they're going to come from a different place, they’re good at social networking so it's inevitable. I also think the way that we own property could change dramatically. I'm certainly interested in tracking the value of crypto tokenisation and funding for property, I think that could be quite an exciting way. We're obviously in the UK going to face continuing challenges around the value of property, and how first time buyers and the price can't keep going up can it? How can we keep growing our property values like we do now?
I hope it doesn't!
The reason it keeps going up is because we keep finding increasingly innovative ways to fund people buying property. I think that tokenisation of property through crypto tokens might be one of those innovations that allows you to invest and almost crowd fund, some of these transactions, certainly that will have the big financial institutions worried that if you no longer need banks and lenders in order to fund property, then I think that could be a game changer. And the everyday automation that is going to be possible through implementation of that. The change that I saw through the 90s into the early 2000s, with basically going from offline to online, the reduction in distance being relative through the use of the internet, I think is going to be equally challenged by the ability to in terms of the amount of change will bring, the ability to automate in a in a human way using AI. And that's a facilitator.
I think blockchain is the is the bigger game changer in terms of it removes sections of the market that exists today that provide trust which you can replace with technology right, that's a paradigm shift. But it is going to be facilitated by AI being the next evolution of the way that technology and computing power work for us. We've already implemented AI in the business, because we recognise it as the next way to be more efficient. And as I said earlier, one of my drivers. We started, we started small, we started simple, we taught an AI to read addresses because we needed to learn how to use AI. And that was something that our clients struggled with, if you get a portfolio from a client of 60,000 properties, and the address data is not cool then you have to do something to clean that. And that's a hard job. Even with algorithms, you can't match everything. But with AI, you can, and so we did that. And then we started teaching AI to read emails and search results, and sort things out that we were having to do manually. And now we're teaching it to read the content of property inquiries, and learn about risk in property, can it read the result and tell you whether a property's good title or not. And so these things that traditionally would have been only tasks for people that mundane can be automated now where there couldn't have been before.
Yes, I'm all for getting rid of any mundane tasks but this is where everyone get so scared that robots are going to take over the world. Andrew, I'm calling conscious of time we’re coming to the end of the podcast, I thought a nice way of rounding off the show you mentioned earlier, you've obviously grown to successful businesses in some pretty tough times with the financial crisis and now, the pandemic, what advice to our listeners could you give us who are trying to grow a business in this space?
Believe in your people, I think that's the one thing I've learned over the years is that money can come and go, you can lose money, you can make money and there's always going to be opportunities, but the people that you have around you, that belief in them and them being part of your business. And what you will get in return from people and staff that believe in you, in terms of leadership, far outweighs the short term losses or gains that you get financially. And most people go through the cycle of am I making money, and there's all the usual business advice of cash flow and good financial management, and have you got a good marketing plan and all that, which is all absolutely valuable. At the end of the day, all of those things must be implemented by people who believe in your cause. And if you can't inspire that in the people that work for you, then you're done. You just won't be successful. And you certainly won't survive tough times without the team around you knuckling down and wanting to be part of it. And I think that that for me, is that the biggest piece of advice I can give is believe in the people and look after them, and I swear they will look after you.
Yes, and then it goes back to how we started the conversation, trust. You’ve just really got to trust them, they got to trust you. And, hopefully, the UK are bringing in the vaccine we’re the first ones to do it, good old Brits, pretty proud of our nation there. But as we are at the end of the show, please let our wonderful audience of listeners the best way for them to connect with you and hear more about Search Acumen?
Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the best bet, or you can drop by the website, www.search-acumen.co.uk you can find my contact details on there. I'm more than happy to have conversations with people about this stuff. It's a real, passion of ours anyway. So feel free to get in touch.
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us on the Propcast Andrew, and I’ll catch up with you after the show.
Brilliant. Will do.
Thank you for joining us this week on the Propcast and a big thanks to our special guests. Make sure you visit our website www.lmre.co.uk where you can subscribe to our show. Or you'll find us on iTunes and Spotify were all good content is found. While you’re at it if you found value in the show, we'd appreciate if you could rate and review us on iTunes or if you could simply spread the word. Be sure to tune in next Tuesday, and I’ll catch you later.